Issue 288290043: Define French as a separate input language (Closed)
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Created:
8 years, 2 months ago by Valentin Villenave Modified:
5 years, 2 months ago CC:
lilypond-devel_gnu.org Visibility:
Public. |
DescriptionDefine French as a separate input language
This patch gives French users the ability to enter
the D pitch as "ré" instead of Italian-like "re".
In addition, the French input language accepts
double sharps entered using the -x suffix.
Patch Set 1 #
Total comments: 2
Patch Set 2 : Remove typo (fix doc build). #Patch Set 3 : Use current LILYPOND_VERSION in regtest. #
Total comments: 6
Patch Set 4 : Remove "francais" #
MessagesTotal messages: 18
https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/1/Documentation/notation/pitche... File Documentation/notation/pitches.itely (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/1/Documentation/notation/pitche... Documentation/notation/pitches.itely:492: @multitable {@code{nederlands}} {do re/re mi fa sol la sib si} What’s this for?
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On 2016/02/22 20:46:57, simon.albrecht wrote: > https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/1/Documentation/notation/pitche... > File Documentation/notation/pitches.itely (right): > > https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/1/Documentation/notation/pitche... > Documentation/notation/pitches.itely:492: @multitable {@code{nederlands}} {do > re/re mi fa sol la sib si} > What’s this for? That’s only the "prototype table row" to provide texinfo with an accurate column width. See http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/Multitable-Colum... Thanks for your attention to detail!
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This won't get tested until there is a tracker. James
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On 2016/02/23 12:56:06, pkx166h wrote: > This won't get tested until there is a tracker. > > James OK found it. The status needs to be updated. Normally git-cl will do that for you automatically but if you do it manually make sure that the Status is 'started' and the Patch status is 'new'. Then it will appear on the filters for me to know to test. Thanks. james
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Fails make doc. https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/1/Documentation/changes.tely File Documentation/changes.tely (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/1/Documentation/changes.tely#ne... Documentation/changes.tely:70: @end itemize This '@end itemize' breaks make doc as it puts all the other @item entries for all the other changes listed 'outside' of the list (i.e. the @end itemize is already stated on line #854
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Remove typo (fix doc build).
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Use current LILYPOND_VERSION in regtest.
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It seems to me (after glancing over it) like the last Rietveld review was just abandoned and the same state resubmitted. Any reason the suggestions have not been addressed? https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/Documentation/notation/pi... File Documentation/notation/pitches.itely (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/Documentation/notation/pi... Documentation/notation/pitches.itely:505: @item @code{francais} or @code{français} There still is no point in "francais" since to enter "ré", you need utf-8 anyway, and if you are going to enter "re", you can use "italiano" in the first place. https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/python/musicexp.py File python/musicexp.py (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/python/musicexp.py#newcod... python/musicexp.py:282: "francais": pitch_francais, Why "francais" here instead of "français"? https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/scm/define-note-names.scm File scm/define-note-names.scm (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/scm/define-note-names.scm... scm/define-note-names.scm:555: (francais . ( français seems permitted as a symbol name in both Guile-1.8 and Guile-2.0.
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On 2016/02/28 12:18:29, dak wrote: > It seems to me (after glancing over it) like the last Rietveld review was just > abandoned and the same state resubmitted. Greetings David, not entirely. I’ve removed the pointless convert-rules, among others. > Any reason the suggestions have not been addressed? I did (try to) address them in the previous discussion. tl,dr: accepting both "espanol" and "español" but only "français" seemed inconsistent to me (even though, I know, there are two justifications for "espanol" that "francais" doesn’t have). That being said, I’m obviously in no place to make my point, so: there you go. https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/python/musicexp.py File python/musicexp.py (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/python/musicexp.py#newcod... python/musicexp.py:282: "francais": pitch_francais, On 2016/02/28 12:18:29, dak wrote: > Why "francais" here instead of "français"? Done. https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/scm/define-note-names.scm File scm/define-note-names.scm (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/scm/define-note-names.scm... scm/define-note-names.scm:555: (francais . ( On 2016/02/28 12:18:29, dak wrote: > français seems permitted as a symbol name in both Guile-1.8 and Guile-2.0. I’m not sure we use non-ascii symbol names or variables anywhere else in LilyPond’s codebase. Granted, defining it as an alias doesn’t help anyway.
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Remove "francais"
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Thanks. I really think we are better off without "francais". I think the original motivation of "espanol" was to avoid trouble with loading "español.ly" (which would have been the original interface to languages) system-independently. https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/scm/define-note-names.scm File scm/define-note-names.scm (right): https://codereview.appspot.com/288290043/diff/40001/scm/define-note-names.scm... scm/define-note-names.scm:555: (francais . ( On 2016/02/28 19:43:06, Valentin Villenave wrote: > On 2016/02/28 12:18:29, dak wrote: > > français seems permitted as a symbol name in both Guile-1.8 and Guile-2.0. > > I’m not sure we use non-ascii symbol names or variables anywhere else in > LilyPond’s codebase. Granted, defining it as an alias doesn’t help anyway. I'm not enamored with going through a symbol for the lookup, but since precedent has already been established by español, it seems pointless trying to change that within the scope of this patch. So we can just think about that another time independently.
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2016-02-28 22:01 GMT+01:00 <dak@gnu.org>: > Thanks. I really think we are better off without "francais". I think > the original motivation of "espanol" was to avoid trouble with loading > "español.ly" (which would have been the original interface to languages) > system-independently. I vote for keeping 'espanol' because it is easier to type (I guess) for non-Spanish keyboards and Spanish note names do not need UTF-8. Also, I would keep 'francais' despite of the Français language itself needing UTF-8 just from a sense of near-zero harm, near-zero performance/memory penalty, if any. Or, rather maybe keeping it is near-zero sense, I don't know. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com
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Francisco Vila <paconet.org@gmail.com> writes: > 2016-02-28 22:01 GMT+01:00 <dak@gnu.org>: >> Thanks. I really think we are better off without "francais". I think >> the original motivation of "espanol" was to avoid trouble with loading >> "español.ly" (which would have been the original interface to languages) >> system-independently. > > I vote for keeping 'espanol' because it is easier to type (I guess) > for non-Spanish keyboards and Spanish note names do not need UTF-8. "espanol" was not being discussed. At any rate, Is there any spoken language _other_ than Spanish that would employ Spanish note names? > Also, I would keep 'francais' despite of the Français language itself > needing UTF-8 just from a sense of near-zero harm, near-zero > performance/memory penalty, if any. It's not a question of "keeping" it. The patch was _adding_ it. LilyPond is large enough as it stands without adding stuff nobody needs. I haven't seen a single reason why anyone would be wanting to use "francais" for specifying a notename language that calls d "ré". > Or, rather maybe keeping it is near-zero sense, I don't know. Do you have a rationale why anyone would be missing "francais" as an alias for the _new_ notename language using "do ré mi..." as note names? -- David Kastrup
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On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 11:07 PM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: > I haven't seen a single reason why anyone would be wanting to use > "francais" for specifying a notename language that calls d "ré". I’m fairly certain that it wouldn’t be used, ever. (Voluntarily, that is.) So this is a point I can grant you. TBH, *I* for one will probably never even use "ré" in my own source code (although I do use accented chars in markups, titles and comments). The real-world situation I’m thinking of, has to do with French-speaking beginners I’ve been dealing with every year for the past decade, and on *every* occasion, I’ve had people wondering why their code wouldn’t compile and struggling to remember that "ré" was to be written without an accent. On the other hand, *if* I taught them to use \language "français" instead of "italiano", there certainly would be several of them who’d forget the "ç" and type "francais". Accepting both means one minute less spent investigating the error. However, I can get behind the notion that user-friendliness has its limits, and that making LilyPond more typo-tolerant ultimately doesn’t help people to learn from their mistakes and to acquire some much-needed coding discipline. (This is no dummy-oriented software -- we’re not inventing the iPad here :-) Cheers, Valentin.
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El 28/02/2016 23:12, "David Kastrup" <dak@gnu.org> escribió: > > Francisco Vila <paconet.org@gmail.com> writes: > > > 2016-02-28 22:01 GMT+01:00 <dak@gnu.org>: > >> Thanks. I really think we are better off without "francais". I think > >> the original motivation of "espanol" was to avoid trouble with loading > >> "español.ly <http://xn--espaol-zwa.ly>" (which would have been the original interface to languages) > >> system-independently. > > > > I vote for keeping 'espanol' because it is easier to type (I guess) > > for non-Spanish keyboards and Spanish note names do not need UTF-8. > > "espanol" was not being discussed. At any rate, Is there any spoken > language _other_ than Spanish that would employ Spanish note names? Català (Catalan), galego (Galician), maybe euskera (Basque) --not sure about the latter--. > Do you have a rationale why anyone would be missing "francais" as an > alias for the _new_ notename language using "do ré mi..." as note names? Certainly not. That good example has made me to understand the issue.
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Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@gmail.com> writes: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 11:07 PM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: >> I haven't seen a single reason why anyone would be wanting to use >> "francais" for specifying a notename language that calls d "ré". > > I’m fairly certain that it wouldn’t be used, ever. (Voluntarily, that > is.) So this is a point I can grant you. > TBH, *I* for one will probably never even use "ré" in my own source > code (although I do use accented chars in markups, titles and > comments). > > The real-world situation I’m thinking of, has to do with > French-speaking beginners I’ve been dealing with every year for the > past decade, and on *every* occasion, I’ve had people wondering why > their code wouldn’t compile and struggling to remember that "ré" was > to be written without an accent. > > On the other hand, *if* I taught them to use \language "français" > instead of "italiano", there certainly would be several of them who’d > forget the "ç" and type "francais". Seriously? I mean, no German would think about leaving off umlauts from a letter under any circumstance, and we don't have anything akin to the Académie française coming after us with German Shepherds (I'd actually want a Fraktur police going after people who think they are looking oldfashioned rather than illiterate by using signs with ligatures amounting to Gas-ts-tube rather than Gast-stube). So one can forget "ç" in French? Wow. How did that come about? > Accepting both means one minute less spent investigating the error. > However, I can get behind the notion that user-friendliness has its > limits, and that making LilyPond more typo-tolerant ultimately doesn’t > help people to learn from their mistakes and to acquire some > much-needed coding discipline. Well, it's not really "coding discipline". It's just reducing the number of gratuitous deviations. Strictly speaking, it may be considered confusing that we don't accept "English" as notename language when "english", the only spelling accepted by LilyPond, is not a well-formed English word. But capitalization seems like a much more subtle thing than a lack of cédille. > (This is no dummy-oriented software -- we’re not inventing the iPad > here :-) Shrug. Many input syntax simplifications may be called "dummy-oriented". I don't see the point in educating people about gratuitous seeming restrictions/limitations and their technical underpinnings. It becomes annoying after a few hundred times. But "francais" seems like something we can do without. Particularly when its main purpose is not throwing an error when writing "ré". -- David Kastrup
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On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:32 AM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: > Seriously? I mean, no German would think about leaving off umlauts from > a letter under any circumstance Well, in German it can alter the meaning (or at least distinguish between plural and singular). In French it’s a bit rarer. (Although when speaking out loud, nobody would say "Frankais" instead of "Français", which is what you get when you remove the cédille.) That being said, I still very much do take issue with the German reform that tends to replace "ich muß" with "ich muss" :-) > So one can forget "ç" in French? Wow. How did that come about? Well, I’m dealing with very computer-illiterate people: retired people who didn’t use a computer at work, younger people whose only dealings with written French come from hasty SMS texting... And even ordinary people who can’t be bothered typing correctly, knowing that MS Word hopefully will replace their mistyped words with correct ones anyway. (sigh) That being said, forgetting the cédille in "francais" does remain an extreme case. I’m not sure "espanol" happens more often, however. > confusing that we don't accept "English" as notename language Indeed. That’s (alongside with "francais" or "espanol") the sort of reasons why I was seduced by the idea of maintaining a few aliases, like we’re already doing for "espanol". We *could* even accept the english language names, such as "french", "german" etc. (since \language is already an English word, as are most LilyPond non-musical keywords). > reducing the number of gratuitous deviations. In that regard, you’ve got my vote. Cheers, Valentin.
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Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@gmail.com> writes: > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:32 AM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: >> Seriously? I mean, no German would think about leaving off umlauts from >> a letter under any circumstance > > Well, in German it can alter the meaning (or at least distinguish > between plural and singular). In French it’s a bit rarer. (Although > when speaking out loud, nobody would say "Frankais" instead of > "Français", which is what you get when you remove the cédille.) > > That being said, I still very much do take issue with the German > reform that tends to replace "ich muß" with "ich muss" :-) > >> So one can forget "ç" in French? Wow. How did that come about? > > Well, I’m dealing with very computer-illiterate people: retired people > who didn’t use a computer at work, younger people whose only dealings > with written French come from hasty SMS texting... Oh come on. Particularly the computer illiterate will know how to work a typewriter. French typewriters are not reduced to ASCII (and even if they are, you can overprint a comma). And particularly with "hasty SMS texting" the completions provided by T9 and its ilk tend to add the diacritics on its own (as long as it provides the word at all, unlike "suspekt -> rüsselü", and that still is diacritically enriched). Well, I'm coming from a TeX tradition. Donald Knuth actually related in a talk that he picked a longer way to work explicitly in order to avoid having a typographically awful road sign kill his mood for the day every morning. -- David Kastrup
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